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Should I Stay or Should I Go?









Something I've done that I can't outrun. Maybe you should wait maybe you should run ” The Fray (Lyircs from the song "Fall Away")

Kate has a past that she needs to shake. Do you think she will ever be able to let it go and move on? Will Sawyer represent her redemption or will the pattern continue to perpetuate itself on the island? If not Sawyer, what will it take for Kate to find freedom from her dark history? Should she, for once in her life, slow down long enough to wait, let it catch up to her, and face its fury? Is there any way she'll ever be able to outrun it and put enough distance between her and her past that it will no longer define her?

What about us? Have we outrun our pasts and found freedom from our darkest moments...or are there still things holding us back from embracing the life we've always wanted? What happens when we stop running and let our pasts catch up with us? How do we face the darkness and move beyond it? What happens when we keep running? Has anyone had success at outrunning the things that can't be undone?

71 Comments:

Blogger Twinkle said...

For me, yes and no. We moved far away from where I grew up partly to put distance between us and my parents. We purposefully chose to be closer to my husband's parents. It gave me great relief for I had a hard time enforcing proper boundaries with my folks when we were together, especially my father. To show how radical our move was in my family, I am the only cousin in my generation that lives outside my home state, and I am the only one in five generations (except for my grandfather who was from a neighboring state) to not live most of my life there.

Getting together with my side of the family about once a year was much preferable dosage, but there were costs. Growing up my cousins were close playmates and my kids cousins live so far away. I struggle with the closeness my sister shares with my mom and had with my dad before he died. It's really funny because growing up they were always the ones who had the hardest time getting along. Still I think getting away was the healthiest thing for me, but all it bought me was time.

Being far way let me work through my issues with my family at my own pace without incurring more problems, but the issues haven't stopped coming up. I haven't escaped completely. For instance, I resolved a lot of issues with my dad before he died, which I'm eternally grateful for. But this year, more issues that I didn't even realize were there have surfaced as I watch my husband relate to our daughter. The issues didn't surface with our first child, because he was a boy. It's the father-daughter relationship I have baggage about. So I'll walk past a room and catch them playing happily out of the corner of my eye and my gut reaction is to be *joyfully surprised.* Why am I surprised that this awesome father has a healthy relationship with his daughter? Because I didn't have one with mine. We run, try to forget, or sometimes successfully deal with our issues, and they become what shapes us.

11/09/2006 10:29 AM  
Blogger Love Pirate 77 said...

Hey y'all,

I spent 19 years running, and as it turns out, running from something I never needed to run from. I was afraid to face what I feared, who I was, and what might happen. Now, I didn't physically run, I just emotionally ran away. I hid myself inside myself. I finally had to force myself, after much soul searching, to stand up and face my fears, face what I was running from. And in the end, it turned out that I had the strength to overcome it all, and that I didn't have to run all those years.

I think we all run at some point in our lives, and in different ways. Some people are always running, and some people only on rare occasions. I still run some days, afraid at first to face whatever I need to face, but so far I've always managed to turn myself around (with the help of my friends more often than not) and be strong and deal with the issue.

I think Kate will eventually stop running, but I don't think Sawyer or Jack alone will be able to help her. I think it will take some combination of both to get her to stop running, and face what she's been running from. Now, I'm not saying she's going to end up having some 3-way romantic relationship with them or something, but I think it will take having both of them by her side to face her past and her fears. But I do believe she will do it, before the series is over. (But we'll have to wait 13 weeks... aaaaaaaaa!)

Twinkle It's tough to not carry over feelings from one relationship into another. I'm sure most people who have ever had a relationship go bad can remember the feeling in their next relationship, the wondering or the paranoia that comes with the prism of experience. I'm glad your husband is such a good father though, and that you realize that he's not going to have the same relationship with your daughter that your father had with you.

Gyarr...

11/09/2006 1:00 PM  
Blogger Amused2bHere said...

I learned a long time ago "You can run but you can't hide". That is just another way of saying "be sure your sin will find you out". It is SO true.

I have learned to face what is difficult while it is new, early in the process. The longer you let things go, the more difficult it is to face. You can't avoid, you can only postpone.

Sin will find you, grief will find you, your secrets will be discovered. Kate is a case in point. If she could outrun her past then she could stop running. But it catches up to her every time, so she runs again.

11/09/2006 2:23 PM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

Several thoughts on this one.

Kate:
I think Kate is freed, physically and emotionally, on the island. No one here is chasing her so she doesn't have to run. There's no place to run from. I wonder if Kate's another one who'd choose to stay on the island so that she can be free. I wonder...thinking about this ... if that's why The Others chose Sawyer, Kate and Jack. All three of them have significant reasons for choosing the island over the real world. Each is trying to escape a life that will haunt him/her no matter how hard he/she tries.

In the real world, b/c she's always going to have to hide who she is or go to jail, she will never be able to fully leave her past behind. She'll either have to lie to people or live in a jail where she's physically (as opposed to emotionally) reminded of her actions every day. On the island, I think that she's going to be able to leave her past behind her. Both Jack and Sawyer know her past, or at least enough of it that she doesn't truly have to hide as she did with the husband, so she can be free around them. The US Marshall is dead and she doesn't have to fear him.

Now, she has to stop running from her fear of herself. Kate doesn't trust herself to do the right thing. This is the issue she needs to embrace. Not her past but her fear of herself.

Personally:
I don't think you ever outrun things. I think you have to run toward your fears. Accepting your fears and facing them - not like heights b/c I ain't goin' out of a plane - but your internal fears allows you to become the person you want to be and have the life you want to have.

I definitely disagree that you should let your past catch up with you. I think if you're passive about it, the result will be negative. In other words, if you just stop and let your past come up to you, you could be blindsided by how it happens. On the other hand, if you walk towards it and take it head on, you're not going to be overrun by it. It's the difference between ignoring the neighbor's yippy dog who wanders into your yard to do his business until you step in the poop and picking him up and giving him back to the neighbor before he has a chance to do his business.

11/09/2006 2:24 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Twinkle, you could have been writing about my life, except that it would be my mother that I moved 1000 miles to get away from. So, after my dad died and I retired this year, here I am living in their home with her, because of my health problems after getting cancer treatment (treatment left me somewhat handicapped and I can't go back to work on a new job just yet). Very difficult. But she can't hurt me now, I am too strong. I'm not the frightened little girl that she used to try to bully and scare. And like you, for the 30+ years that I lived away from home, I missed out on almost all the family events and holidays. But I could not be around her until I grew a spine, and God showed me what I was worth as a human being, and how to be strong.

Sometimes, a long period of time and growth of our self-worth will allow whatever giants that we are running from to fade away, or to not seem like such a big deal anymore. The giant that scared me away from home is now a little mouse to me and can't hurt me anymore. So, a fairly happy ending there.

But of course, some things are not as easy to elude. A dishonest life will always seem to catch up to a person who knows the difference of right and wrong. It always amazes me when I see those stories about criminals who spend most of their lives running from the law, and having a crappy time of it as well. After the first few years, I would probably be thinking about how I could be having three squares a day, cable TV, and a warm dry cell in jail -- instead of living like a refugee on the run, like Kate was.

If Kate was a real person, I would say that she needs to find her own strength for the will to do what's right, and not depend on someone else entirely for the strength and support -- or to tell her who she is and what she must do with her life. And sometimes you just have to face up to what you have done, take the consequences like an adult, and pay your dues. I agree with Kvonhard that for the most part, you can't run from what you've done or undone, or a mistake that you've made, or a problem. It's best just to face it head on, deal with it, and be done with it, if possible, instead of letting the thing fester for years like an open wound. Just dig the bullet out, dress the wound, and let the healing begin! (I didn't just say that cliche did I?) :-)

11/09/2006 6:22 PM  
Blogger Administrator said...

twinkle, I think it's important to know that one may never be able to escape completely from the haunts of the past. Even after facing our imperfections and dealing with them in a healthy way, issues (some may call them consequences) will likely remain for a lifetime and play a role in shaping our own lives and the lives of future generations. I am grateful for my strong belief in the words from Romans 8:28...God can use even those difficult parts of our story to make a good result.

lovepirate77, It's so good to be reminded that usually, when you finally face what you're running from, you realize that you have had the strength to face it all along and that you didn't need to be running all along. That gives me the encouragement to stop whatever running I'm doing now and see if I can't turn around and deal with this thing. Sometimes though, I think that some of the running is necessary and that, at first, you aren't prepared to deal with the darkness...the running gives you time to be ready.

amusedtobehere, On the flip side of lovepirate's observations, while running may give you a chance to prepare to face your imperfections, the darkness may strengthen too during that time. Thanks for pointing that out and taking away the excuse to run too long. You don't want your problems to be too overgrown when you finally stop to face them.

kvonhard, Thanks for talking about running towards your fears. Makes me think of David & Goliath. The shepherd boy ran towards the giant on the battlefield. He approached the seemingly unapproachable with tenacity driven by faith in a higher power. Also, thanks for mentioning dog poop as a powerful illustration!

capcom, You think Kate would need to do what is right...but what would be the right thing for her to do? How would she face her past in the real world? Turn herself in? What do you think?

11/10/2006 5:33 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

kvonhard: Thanks for your honest question on the last thread. My response is over there, in case you hadn't seen it. :-)

Thanks, everyone! I've been sort of astonished by this "new" observation and the depth of my fears. I guess I was hurt in this area more than I realized and have some serious thoughts and memories to work through. Thankfully my husband is very supportive. And I too hold onto the idea that God can make anything in my life work out for my ultimate best. Personally I don't believe everything happens for a reason like some on Lost, but I do believe everything can have a reason made out of it.

11/10/2006 6:56 AM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Hi All,

Bit late on posting this week, my company is relocating next weekend so as you can imagine things are a little hectic!

The one thing that sticks in my mind is Kate's Pregnancy test. I keep wondering what would have happened if it had been positive, would that have stopped Kate running? Is that what she wanted, something to tie her down, allow her to grow roots.

For me, other than running away from School when I was nine, which I mentioned in a previous post, I have not really run away from anything, sure geographically speaking until I got married I tended to be a drifter and I don't have any real roots to speak of but that's more about a journey of self discovery, going forward, rather than running away if that makes sense, I think actually I'm more of a shout at the devil type kind of guy.I tend to have a lot of dreams (I am a VERY vivid dreamer and remember my dreams every night) where I am in a confrontational situation, normally with something very large and powerful, sometime literally telling Satan to go *%£$ himself!Probably not too clever. I'm sure any psychiatrist would love looking into me.

I think though sometimes you have to run, or rather you have to withdraw to gather your strength, before turning round to face whatever you were running from. I'm sure there is a relevant quote from Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" that fits in here but I can't remember it well enough to quote at the moment.

However sometimes when you turn round and face your problems they sometimes turn out to be not half as bad as you imagined. There is a quote from the Prophet Mohammed " I saw a monster on the mountainside, as I drew closer I saw it was a man, and when we came together we embraced for it was my brother"

Kvonhard Said

I don't think you ever outrun things. I think you have to run toward your fears. Accepting your fears and facing them - not like heights b/c I ain't goin' out of a plane - but your internal fears allows you to become the person you want to be and have the life you want to have.

Hey If you jump I'll hold your hand! I have a fear of heights but I enjoy climbing (not that I've done it for years)and I've always wanted to jump from a plane (kind of kill or cure) . I used to be very badly arachnaphobic but over the years I have managed to come face to face with that to a degree (I'm still not ever going to pick up a Tarantula though - no they're not cute, they're really not). I also have a fear of being in water out of my depth, and by this I mean the sea, lakes or rivers, I'm fine in anything man made. Now don't get me wrong, I am a very strong swimmer and I used to do a lot of white water canoeing but I have a real fear of deep water, I don't know why. I can overcome it, I went snorkling on a reef in Egypt in crystal clear water only about 30 feet deep, wonderful but terrifying,my worst nightmare however would be to left floating in the a life ring in the middle of the Ocean, I'm not a believer in suicide but In that scenario drowning might be an option I would take ( I know someone who's father actually took that option after their ship was sunk in the South Atlantic during the Falklands War!).

I think however what I have learned is that if you don't face your fears they become worse, this was certainly the case with spiders (that's weird, even know I still don't even like typing the S- word!).

Kvonhard When I first read your point about the Yippy dog, I misread what you said and thought you were talking about picking up the poop and giving it to your neighbour LOL.

Twinkle said Personally I don't believe everything happens for a reason like some on Lost, but I do believe everything can have a reason made out of it.

Good point Twinkle I think a lot of things do happen for a reason and a lot of the time, well stuff just happens but as I am an eternal optimist I am a believer that every cloud has a silver lining and I love your idea that even if it doesn't we can always make the best out of a bad situation.

11/10/2006 7:42 AM  
Blogger Administrator said...

Just wanted to pitch in that I have jumped out of a plane. It was awesome! I've got it on video and will try to post it on YouTube sometime next week.

11/10/2006 10:04 AM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

So, I'm on a kick today. I know that over in TLC I mentioned that I think Kate, Jack and Sawyer are being held in a Sartre-esque hell. However, I re-read No Exit last night (and I'm going to see it tonoight) and the more I think about the play and what we're talking about here, the more connections I see. So, bear with me and, at the end, is a link to the full play (it only took me about 40 minutes to re-read, it's about 45 pages of dialogue).

First, the basic premise of the play. Three people die - a nymphomaniacal ditz murderess (Estelle), a pacifist cowardly journalist (Garcin) and a suicide pact stole her lover lesbian (Inez). The three end up together in hell in an ornately furnished room. Realizing it's hell, they wait for the torturers only to realize that they will be torturing each other. Estelle cannot live without a man pining for her beauty. Inez is infatuated with Estelle, but Estelle will have nothing to do with a woman. Garcin wants to be left alone to "be with his thoughts" and can not be freed unless someone whose opinion he respects (in the end here Inez) can find him to be noble. Give or take, that's the 30 second version. They end up "living" in a vicious cycle where "Hell is ... other people."

OK, now, here's what I think. I think the Others are basically doing the same thing to Kate, Sawyer, and Jack. You have a similar love/lust triangle with Jack, Kate, and Sawyer. But the end result is that each is left with their thoughts. In No Exit, the characters' lives continue to haunt them. The murders or cheating or cowardice. They live, not only with their thoughts, but with people who constantly remind them of their imperfections. The same thing, albeit a bit expanded, is going on here. All three of our Losties are being tortured by their past and it's implications to their present. (See, I *DID* bring it back to topic) I'm not suggesting that the Island is purgatory or hell, just that the situation in which the Losties find themselves is similar to this construct. Jack is tortured by his sense of morality and by wanting Kate. Kate by her past crimes and by her feelings for Sawyer (and Jack?). Sawyer by his mistakes/personality and his feelings for Kate. You can never outrun your past, not if focusing on your past is truly the meaning of hell.

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/sart.html

11/10/2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

Twinkle: I saw your responses! Thanks! I understand how religion is different for everyone.

Admin/DA: Yeah, I forget sometimes. I'm so used to teaching my students that I've started to use any kind of ridiculous metaphor that I think the most common denominator of experience can understand. I refer you to having to teach American politics as Liberal/Conservative and Democrat/Republican as "Hippie and Non-hippie". And these kid are of voting age. *Sigh*

Admin: Can't wait to see the video! But NO WAY. Nope, uh-uh. I'll get on a plane as transportation if necessary. But nope, no way. Not happening. Some fears, I'm perfectly happy to never face. :-D When I die falling from a high place, then my fear can catch up with me b/c I won't care anymore. :-D

11/10/2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger Love Pirate 77 said...

Hey y'all,

Admin and everyone.
I do think that running can be helpful, it can give you time to gather yourself and make your stand, but the trouble with running is knowing when to stop. Many people start running, saying, "I'm not going to deal with this now, I'll deal with it later" only to find that running permanently feels easier than making a stand. That is why I ran for so long. Sure, I was afraid to face my fears, and I was afraid to change the status quo. But to me, it seemed easier just to keep running, and I also couldn't see how making a stand could make a difference. I don't think we can ever truly outrun anything. Even if we outrun the situation, until we face what happened or our fears or whatever is inside of us, we'll never really outrun it. If you run to avoid something, or because something happened, and you manage to never have to deal with that on the outside, that won't change that it's still inside you and that you will not be able to outrun that.

DA
It's funny you mention tarantulas, because I found one right outside my office (trailer) the other day at the mine I work at. I can't stand spiders (though I appreciate what they do in the ecosystem) and it definitely gave me the jibblies. They're apparently pretty common out here, but it was the first one I've encountered. I really hope I don't find any more.

Twinkle
Twinkle said: Personally I don't believe everything happens for a reason like some on Lost, but I do believe everything can have a reason made out of it.
Thank you for saying that, I couldn't have said it better myself (and I've tried). That is exactly how I feel. I don't believe in fate, but I believe that everything can have a reason or a meaning or a purpose if you can find it. I might even have to put that on my instant messenger profile (if you don't mind).

Gyarr...

11/10/2006 11:29 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

Well Admin, I feel that Kate should not have tried running from the law for this long. Granted, when we're young we've a tendency to be either stupid or to think that the consequences for our actions are not lasting. But I feel that especially in her case, if she got a decent attorney, she could explain why she did what she did (the abuse of her and her mother) and if she got jail time, she could pay her civil dues for taking a life and probably get off for good behavior before long (in the best-case scenario). Just my guess. But like I said, if nothing else, a warm cell and 3 meals a day is better than running and hiding in the cold and the dark forever, I would think. It reminds me of a line in "The Lost Horizon" which I started reading on the advice of a TLC-er. After they crash on the mountain, had been there all night, and are found by the monks who they think may or may not be friendly, one character comments that it could be a trap, and another man says, "A nice warm trap with a big piece of cheese would suit me down to the ground right about now." :-)

But I really don't see the positive percentage in living life as a fugitive. And, if you've done something wrong, running and not making restitution for your actions isn't the way to go. Kate needs to face what's been done and deal with it. Oh, she didn't think of the consequences when she planned to blow up the house with the evil guy in it? Tough nuggies. That's what she did, and she has to face it. Although I really feel ticked off that her mother didn't stand by her in any way. Kate probably feels like she has no where to turn and no one to care about her, so that also probably spurred her into running. But the thing is, where do you run, when you have no place to go??? Well, Craphole Island, of course. :-) But you can't run from the truth for very long and eventually, and if you have a conscience, it will eat you alive anyway. This is all my opinion without inserting any of my personal faith and beliefs into it, i.e., the 10 Commandments, etc.

BTW, as for our outlaws Kate and Sawyer being together, I just saw a preview on Turner Classic Movies for an old Robert Mitchum movie and the girl says, "You don't deserve any kind of girl but me. I'm bad and you're bad, so we're both good for each other." Reminded me a lot of K and S and how Kate most likely feels, in light of how she told Jack that she could never be as good a person as him.

11/10/2006 11:54 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Admin: You're nuts! And I mean that in the friendliest way possible. There are many nutty people in my life that I appreciate dearly. :-)

DA: Wow! I've never talked to someone with dreams kind of like mine. I had 4 or 5 recurring nightmares as a child (around the age of 10 or 11?). A couple were the bad guy chasing you kind, one was the falling kind, and misc others, plus other non-recurring ones. I remember feeling really distressed by them and how constant they were. Somehow I learned to pray during the dreams. At first I only gained a little courage, until the dream returned and I would remember to pray sooner and get braver. Finally I called on God to destroy each "dream demon," or in the case of the falling dream I stopped falling and flew away. After that final time, I never had those nightmares again. In fact, as a 19/20 year old I couldn't remember having any nightmares through my teenage years. I did start having occasional vivid nightmares after that sometimes with but sometimes without the ability to recognize it as a dream or to pray.

It's fascinating to me that those dreams occurred during a very lonely time in my life but *just before* all the mess with my father happened. (As a refresher for those who didn't read my earlier story. My dad was a pastor who rejected the faith when I was 13. I chose to pursue God on my own without the help of my family and that caused tremendous conflict between us. He finally was diagnosed with cancer and made his peace with God and myself before dying about 3 years ago.)

11/10/2006 12:32 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Wow! So many posts since I started mine at lunch time!

Love_pirate: You're welcome to it! Definitely not my original idea.

To get all philosophical (because we never do that around here! ;-) it doesn't really matter if everything happens for a reason or a reason is made out of everything that happens. From a perspective outside of time, it's pretty much the same.

11/10/2006 12:58 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Twinkle I agree, I haven't been able to (yet) accept the idea that everything happens for a reason. But I do subscribe to the thought (and Bible verse) that something good can be made to come out of what happens. I could really be wrong about doubting everything being for a reason, but I don't feel it it my bones yet.

I get very frustrated when people try to figure out why something happened, but there really isn't any point in that, in my opinion (unless you're putting the pieces together of your actions that lead to something happening). I think that the questions that God wants us to be asking is not "why", but "how" and "what". That is, how can I fix this situation or problem and make it better, and what am I supposed to learn from it. And so as not to veer too far off from Admin's original thread question, a person can never find out what they are supposed to learn from life, if they are always running from life...from responsibility.....from trouble.....when they should be facing it.

11/10/2006 3:12 PM  
Blogger FosterMom said...

First, let me start off by saying that I hope I don't sound like a blithering idiot. This is the fear that I live with every day but here I am posting despite it.

Secondly - WOW! on all the posts. Much food for thought here.

Kvonhard: I totally agree with your post on 11/9 regarding Kate's situation . That's exactly what I would have said and you put it so much better.

Capcom: I too moved (from NY to TX) to get out from under my mother's thumb. She exerted too much control in my life and I was unhappy. I just knew she would never change (still hasn't) and it was easier for me and better for my emotion/mental well being. We are much closer for it. However, I do feel like there's a fine line between running away from something and avoiding something because its easier for everyone involved in the situation if you take yourself out of it.

Also, I agree with you 100% with your statement that a dishonest life will always catch up to a person. I've seen it time and time again.

Lastly Capcom, I hope you continue to quickly recover from your cancer. I believe that a positive outlook can overcome a lot in life, IMHO.

I personally believe that things happen for a reason. I've learned not to question why however. Only God knows and that's good enough for me. This revelation came to me in my first marriage when I wanted nothing else but to be a stay at home Mom. I finally got pregnant after several fertility treatments. I had a miscarriage and could not make sense of it at the time. I now can as I have an amazing new husband and an amazing new life and two truly incredible foster sons that we are currently adopting. Yes, I was meant to adopt children with my husband who I consider my true soul mate. My ex-husband never wanted to adopt.

I agree with many of you here in that running or avoiding a problem that needs to be dealt with is easier in the long run if you face it head on. It shapes you, makes you stronger, and more prepared to deal with future problems you may not think you have the life skills to deal with but do.

11/11/2006 7:26 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Thank you for your kind and positive words Fostermom. :-) And welcome over here at SotL! I'm sorry that things did not go well in your first try at marriage and children, but very glad that things have worked out for you in the present! You're right, God knows, and that's all we need to know.

I may have posted this here or on TLC many threads ago (so sorry if I'm repeating, but it goes with this thread too), but two of my favorite quotes are by Eleanor Roosevelt: 1)"Courage is more exhilarating than fear, and in the long run it is easier" and 2)"You must do the thing that you think you cannot do." These two quotes have gotten me through some hard times in the past few years when taking the easy way out would have been....well, easy. But it really is true that facing fears or responsibilities is so much easier than avoidance and denial after all is said and done.

11/11/2006 10:01 PM  
Blogger FosterMom said...

Capcom: Agreed and so eloquently put!

11/12/2006 7:12 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Hard to argue with Eleanor Roosevelt. ;-) Welcome, FosterMom!

11/12/2006 8:45 AM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Hi Guys,

Back after the weekend, my youngest has just started walking so I haven't had much time to get online.

Fostermom Welcometo SOTL, like TLC it's a really friendly place, and don't worry about sounding like a blithering idiot, I think we all have that worry but every one here has so much to give and from what I've read of your post so far you fall into that catagory.

Love Pirate - Tarantula's outside work - eeek! I guess your're down in the South West somewhere. I saw a couple of big bird eaters in Venezuela, my sister didn't and almost put her hand down on them (I'm not sure who would have come off worse!)

I think the the thing is whether or not things happen for a reason, at the end of the day stuff happens and we have to deal with it. We seem to be on real roll of bad luck at the moment (this week the brakes went on both cars an I broke a truth) but I've got past the annoyed and the depressed stage and just laugh now and the thing is I still have a house, job, food on the table etc.

Twinkle Yeah, I've always had very vivid dreams (Yes, I can fly too) although I do seem to have a lot of reaccuring themes (either post-apocalyptic or volcano's or mountains). I also quite often have lucid dreams (ie I am aware I am dreaming and have a certain amount of control over the dreams.) Whilst I hold no sway with the Dream Dictionaries, dreams can be a good indicator of stress or other problems, dreaming you are naked, lost a tooth or taking exams for example are all classic anxiety dreams. As a teen a friend and I used to try and meet in our dreams and have a discussion, we never managed but I've met people who claim they have!

Kvonhard said forget sometimes. I'm so used to teaching my students that I've started to use any kind of ridiculous metaphor that I think the most common denominator of experience can understand. I refer you to having to teach American politics as Liberal/Conservative and Democrat/Republican as "Hippie and Non-hippie". And these kid are of voting age. *Sigh* LOL

I'm the king of exended and or dumb metaphors. I wish we could use the Hippie non-Hippie metaphor over here but it's a bit more complex It's more Centre Right(but think they're socialist but heading facist), Centre Right (but think they're conservative but trying to be green), the sensible option (but too boring to vote for) and then all the Nationalist, Socialist, Green and others (64 at last count!)

Twinkle siad Hard to argue with Eleanor Roosevelt. ;-) Too true - Hey isn't it time you guys had a first Lady? Then again Hilary Clinton or Condy Rice, maybe not ;)

OK, I'll shut up now before I get into politics. I'm going to get my dinner, I'll log back in tommorow when my head should be clearer and I can write something more coherently.

11/12/2006 12:21 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All! I have very vivid and recurring dreams too and I wish that I didn't. I fly also, but it's more like a run/jump/fly. Like how the Hulk leaped around the desert in the Hulk movie that came out a few years ago. When I was in the theater and he started doing that, I almost yelled, "Hey, that's how I fly in my dreams!" It was very freaky to see it like that, when I was awake! The other night I had a very vivid dream about being abducted by aliens, for the first time. After 16 years of watching the X-Files, and that's the first time I dreamt that?!

Hang in there DA, the bad patch will go the other way soon. And yes Fostermom, DA is right, we all blither from time to time here. :-D

11/12/2006 2:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DA and Capcom: Thanks!

DA: Good luck with the baby walking. I have a nineteen month old (my avatar). He's walking, running, sprinting, jumping, climbing, rolling, twirling...I could go on and on but I'm just too exhausted from running around the house with him (and I wouldn't have it any other way as I say with a huge smile on my face!).

With regard to dreaming, I never remember them. I'm sure I dream but I have no recollection, no recurring dreams, etc... Oh well.

Hey Capcom - you sure that alien abduction was just a dream ;-)

11/12/2006 4:01 PM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Well you joke Fostermom but I remember when I was in my late teens, early twenties I had a very vivid dream of alien abduction and that tehy had implanted something in my ear, I woke up deaf in one ear absaloutely terrified, I wasn't totally convinced it was a dream until I went to the doctors and had my ear syringed! Of course in hindsight, my ear had got blocked in the night and was the origin of the dream... or was it... ;)

11/13/2006 2:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DA: It is freaky, isn't it? How can there be that many people in the world claiming to have been abducted by aliens? I mean it's a lot but who knows. When I was a little girl, I awoke in the middle of the night to a very blinding bright light in my bedroom and I was so afraid I couldn't scream for my parents. To this day I don't know if I was dreaming or not.

Question of the day: Does what's going on around us real time, while we are dreaming, influence what we dream about?

11/13/2006 7:56 AM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Hi Fostermom From what I can remember from my psychology lectures at university, yes very much so. While we are asleep we as still listening smelling etc, that's why as a parent we can sleep through our partner snoring but wake if our child cries out. Certrainly an sensory input can be interpreted into a dream for example the sensation of pain, or the need to pee (dangerous dream that one!) or for example we hear the telephone ring and dream about an alarm going off.


As we are talking about sleep has anyone woken up whilst their body is still asleep. Esentially when you sleep your muscles are flooded with a muscle relaxant which stops you sleep walking etc. I've only experienced it once but I woke up completely papralysed, I could not move or even make a sound, it took about 10 minutes to wake my body up and I can tell you when you cant see the rest of your room your mind soon fill sin the blanks... very scary!

11/13/2006 8:52 AM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

Fostermom: Welcome!!! Excited to see a new "face" on the board. Your boy is an absolute cutie!!

DA: I shudder at the idea of having to explain the idea of more than one party to my students. Shudder? Should I suggest even have nightmares about it now? ;-) I won't, however, delve into my theories on why parlimentary politics are better than two party systems...

As re: dreams - my understanding from the ONE class I took years ago was that when we sleep our subconscious continues to work, trying to solve unresolved issues/problems. Therefore, dreams are the mind's way of working out the kinks in our conscious life.

11/13/2006 10:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DA: Sounds completely terrifying...hope I never experience that one. It's very interesting that we are tied to the outside world while dreaming. I never really thought about it as I can sleep through a ringing phone no problem but can hear my son in his crib while he's playing. As you are several hours ahead of us, have a great evening.

Kvonhard: Thanks so much! William (my avatar) is an amazing child.

Now I know this question is off topic, but is there a place that has some sort of tutorial or crash course on how to use this blogger? I see people doing bold and italics and I haven't a clue. Thanks so much! :-)

11/13/2006 10:49 AM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Hi Fostermom

Click here for the guide David published.

11/13/2006 3:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DA: Excellent. Thanks so much!

11/13/2006 3:20 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/13/2006 5:57 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

kvonhard said:
why parlimentary politics are better than two party systems...

I just want to wear a big wig! ;-)

RE - Dreams: I read an article sometime this year about how we really don't understand much about sleep and the brain. They have some working theories but there's still a whole lot of mystery too.

As for my dreams, I have two kinds. The kind where I can tell it's about resolving issues/problems/feelings from when I'm awake and an entirely different set that are very vivid and usually have some sort of important, maybe spiritual overtones. Dunno what that's about. Probably still trying to work out issues but the dream types feel very different. I wouldn't be surprised if dreams tapped into the spiritual world sometimes.

DA, sometimes I too can tell when I'm dreaming although that kind of dream is rarer now. I loved it when I "came aware" in a dream. Sometimes I'd start the whole jumping/flying thing like Capcom talked about just for fun.

11/13/2006 5:58 PM  
Blogger Amused2bHere said...

And now to bring us back full circle: dreams can be our brain's way of working out data we gathered throughout the day, or working out problems that our conscious mind is avoiding. Just another way of proving that you can't outrun your issues,eh? (No, I'm not Canadian lol )

According to my counselor, dreaming of running or driving can be the expression of an escape wish. Hmm, food for thought. That's the case with me, maybe with others too?

Welcome Fostermom! Glad to see a new contributor here on SotL. Please relax, and be yourself. We promise not to bite.

11/15/2006 9:01 PM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

I often have dreams that I am driving a car that is out of control - mmn so what does that mean?

11/16/2006 4:21 AM  
Blogger Amused2bHere said...

I guess it depends on whether you find "out of control" scary or not. Are you being chased? Is there danger?

"Out of control" scares me silly. I tend to be a control freak, and have had to learn to let go, let others give me direction and lead the way. Yikes! No plane jumping for me (or wild roller coasters, etc.)

Maybe you want to escape but feel powerless to do so.

And maybe you like the adventure of not being in control.

Yeah, I can picture you as the Indiana Jones type (cue theme music).
LOL

11/16/2006 11:35 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

"Out of control" - Ha! I'd need another whole post to talk about that one!

We're going to be leaving, traveling cross-country for Thanksgiving, so I won't be checking in as much. Have a happy holiday ya'll! And those who don't celebrate, happy giving thanks anyway! :-)

11/16/2006 1:30 PM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

Hey folks, we've got, what, 13 weeks til Lost starts up again? What are we going to do??? I'm already feeling the withdrawal.

Was it Twinkle who suggested that we write in to Admin with ideas? I'm wondering, it might be cool if we each picked a week (for those who want to) to come up with Lost themed topics and start the process rolling with the research, etc. Maybe put together a schedule to make sure there's no repeats ... kinda like when we had to do reports in school ...

I know. Nerd. I'm good with that nickname. It's just an idea to keep us all going and maybe to see what other people see in Lost as well. But, I don't want to step on any toes or anything ... it was just an idea.

11/17/2006 10:37 AM  
Blogger Love Pirate 77 said...

kvonhard
I think that's a good idea, and I bet admin has some good ones too... We should all come up with some ideas, discuss them and then see what everyone likes the best. And I prefer the term "geek" for myself, but nerd works too.

11/17/2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/17/2006 2:21 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi Friends!

Sounds like some good ideas about what to talk about in the next couple months, so we don't lose touch with the blog and each other. There are a number of themes or insights on the human condition in each show, and I think that each viewer picks up something interesting to themselves. So maybe we can either pick apart new topics from this mini-season, or from previous seasons. Or, just from our favorite (or unfavorite?) character's general experiences, foibles, strengths, and idiosyncracies. Should we brainstorm about it here?

Since my nephews started watching Lost (after they saw me going nuts over TLE during their summer vacation) I have been able to explain a lot about people, the world, and the morals of science to them via the show's eps and TLE. And not the least to be sure, I even got to teach my littlest neph about how to make an orange peel smile, like Locke did in the pilot! :-D I also got to show them how nice people can be when everyone was sending out Apollo bars and we got a couple from Dennis. I think that this show and game has started more human interaction than anyone could imagine. And it's not even in syndication with annual conventions yet! :o)

We might get slim bloggings during the holidays, but then we will have all of the cold bleak month of January to ruminate to our hearts desire.

11/17/2006 2:25 PM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Hi Guys

amused2behere no, I'm usually just doing something mundane and find I can't drive for ...., well you get the idea, mind you my wife would say no change there.

Kvonhard Nothing wrong with Nerd, remember the 'Geek inherit the Eatrh' (or was that just Bill Gates and Steve Jobs?) - Nerd/Geek is a badge I am happy wear, my geekiness is just another part of me :)

11/17/2006 2:26 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

I think a post on control is a good idea. There are all kinds of examples of people on the island who are trying to grasp control in different ways to different ends. (Have we already had a post on being a control freak?) Anyway, how much control of our circumstances do we really have? etc... But don't do it next week because I want to be able to participate!

11/17/2006 6:46 PM  
Blogger Amused2bHere said...

Just in case we don't get to say it, have a happy Thanksgiving (USA), safe journey for those who are traveling to and fro.

I sure give thanks for all of you!

PS: Dinner's a my house at 4pm EST if you are in the New York area. ;)

11/17/2006 10:19 PM  
Blogger Dark Angel said...

Although I remember celebrating Thanksgiving when I attended the American International School in Rotterdam that was an aweful longtime ago and I can't remember exactly when it is (not something that we celebrate at all in the UK). But whenever it is hope you all have/had a good time :)

11/20/2006 6:46 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/20/2006 12:19 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All, ditto on the Thanx-Day greetings and wishes to everyone, posters and lurkers all! I am very thankful this year as well for all the friends that I have met on the TLEC and TLC blogs, to be sure. XO

DA, have you ever tried making the whole Thanksgiving meal spread? It's very good and all the food is so autmnal and harvesty and goes together nicely. Turkey, yams, dressing, corn, cranberries, pumpkins. Yummy. It always kind of reminded me of a Henry VIII type of spread. :o)

Oh, and if you're a vegetarian, you can shoot yourself a Tofurkey! :-D

11/20/2006 12:22 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Hey, everyone! We're back! Just got in today from our family travels. For some reason it feels like New Year's to me with new ideas of things to do, ways to get my life more in order, and stuff to try. Most of my gift giving shopping is over so now I'm focusing on what I can do to help my children not be total materialistic little beggars. I'm a little surprised by how optimistic I feel. LOL! Or maybe at how pessimistic I must have been feeling before? Anyway, the potential relational tensions didn't happen like I expected, and we had a great time together as an immediate family unit and with our extended family. It was the first Thanksgiving together since my dad passed away, but that lent it a subtle, heartfelt sweetness instead of spoiling the festivities. Prayers were answered!

David, how did it go for your family this year? How has everybody else been?

I confess I am such a nerd that you all came up in conversation many times. "What are you doing right now?" someone would ask. "Well, I participate in a Lost blog pretty regularly." "A what?!" "Well, you know the TV show Lost...." I found several family members who watch! I never would have guessed it! Anyway, I hope some of them find their way here sometime.

Are we ready for a new post? Glad to be back!

11/28/2006 7:01 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All!

So glad that your trip and T-day went so well Twinkle, that's wonderful. It sounds as if you had an epiphany of sorts. I experienced somewhat the same outcome, but for different reasons. My brother got married the day after T-day, and it was a really great sharing experience for him and us. They had a very simple and heartfull ceremony and reception. We got to meet her family from Ohio, and we got along great. The event was a very intimate and special experience.

Hope that everyone else's T-day was good too.

11/29/2006 3:47 PM  
Blogger Amused2bHere said...

And dinner at my house was nice, too. My sis and bro that live in NY also came and brought their offspring, it was cool to watch our collective children (ages 6, 13,16,17,18,19,21) interact. We shared the cooking duties so the whole feast did not fall to me, and everything was delish. The whole event was really nice. Our mom and dad would have been pleased (they have been gone since '98).
Twinkle, I am glad that your get-together went so well. Especially the first one without Dad. If your family starts reading the blog you might have to watch what you share, btw! But it still could be fun to share the blog with kin.

9 weeks to go until Lost!
Happy Wedding Day, Thrasher!

12/06/2006 8:10 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Yay! Thrasher! Congrats!

There's an interesting discussion going on about perceived dangers of "liberalism" defined as: " political philosophy committed to … a social order and … government … formed on self-interest and consent." Someone else is questioning whether being bound in a social contract of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, basically a contract of self-interest, is ultimately beneficial.

The blog is here . It is a Christian blog, and they're basically arguing about whether/how "every man for himself" can negatively impact how people function as a community. When they started talking about the social contract it reminded me of our discussion so I thought I'd let you know in case anyone is interested.

12/08/2006 8:22 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All. Thanks for the link Twinkle. That's an interesting definition of liberalism. I will have to check it out. Ayn Rand felt that liberalism was based on collectivism and her definition of altruism, which resulted in a tribal-pool type sharing of all goods, regardless of whether people in that collective society worked for their share or not. Her philosohpy was that selfishness (in her definition) and individualism was better for society than collectivism. Basically, capitalism vs. socialism/communism of course. I agree with her up to a point with the self-fullfilling individual, but not in the way that she defines it in total. I believe that even though I am mostly loath to ask for assistance for myself in most cases (kind of an "I can do it myself" problem that I have), I feel it's necessary as a fellow human being and a Christian for me to lend a helping hand to others in need, who cannot help themselves or who have problems.

Anyway, that may not have anything to do with the discussion link you gave, I'll go read it.

Have a good weekend everyone. :o)

12/08/2006 10:12 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Thanks, Capcom. To explain to those who didn't look, the post was referring to "liberalism" as an worldwide political ideology (see definition here) and not conservative or liberal political values. I don't think the author quoted in the blog I referred to was arguing that liberalism is worse than collectivism. As one poster said, he may even prefer it as a basis for government. But that doesn't mean it is free of problems. I think one of the issues the post discussed is whether/how our individualistic focus on fulfilling our self-interests hurts our ability to function as a community, especially when trying to be part of a community of faith.

Off the cuff I'd say that an emphasis of the modern Era since the Enlightenment has been not just "man is the measure of all things," but also "self is the measure of all things." From the articles I've read in my infamous :-D New Scientist and other magazines, blogs, etc..., many are saying that we are moving from modernism to post-modernism. We are operating and thinking more collectively, less linearly, more holistically. In some ways it seems like a fusion of modernism and Eastern values. I'm not saying it's a better way or worse way to think or incompatible with liberalism, but it seems to me to be a reaction to some of the negative aspects of liberalism. This shift may turn out just to be a variation on the modernism theme or it may be what some predict, a revolution in culture akin to the Enlightenment. Interestingly the computer/Internet age may be one of the driving forces behind the shift. Anybody else learning something about it?

12/10/2006 2:14 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/12/2006 10:12 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

Sounds good Twinkle. I still agree with Rand to the point that having the freedom to pursue our individual goals and to achieve success is more supportive to society than not. Think of the Body of the Church for example. We are all separate in our talents and opportunities that God uses through us to the strength of The Church. And together, as separate entities, we all come together to form the complete Church. As they used to explain to us in Sunday School, we can't all be the hands or feet or eyes of the Body of The Church, we all have different personalities and talents that God gives us to contribute as a whole. In the same sense, the ability of a society's individuals to pursue their separate creativities or goals, contributes collectively to the whole of the progress of a society. Of course, like I said, I do believe in supporting those who can't support themselves. What was it that Alvar Hanso said, "A society should not merely be measured by its brightest lights, but on how the brightest light the way for those who cannot shine for themselves"? I really like that, where ever TPTB actually got it from.

In Rand's "Fountainhead" where she says that man's ego is the fountainhead of progress, it's in our individuality of creativity that society progresses. When society falls back on it's past or common ideas, and is afraid to create and do new things, it fails to progress and achieve. Think of the Space Race between the USSR and the US. In the US, many thousands of separate talents across America worked "together" learning and creating new science applications for the common goal of getting to the moon. Each individual in the program was allowed to contribute their own ideas and improvements if needed, from propulsion engineers to the little old ladies who sewed the gloves into the moon suits. All these separate contributors collectively reached the goal of putting a man on the moon, for the benefit of the community of the United States of America.

Take Werner von Braun for example. In Germany when he was in the V2 rocket program, he was put in jail for a while just for suggesting that rockets could be used for peaceful purposes, such as space travel, instead of war. When he got to the US and had the freedom to perform his individual creativity, he was the main force behind getting the US into space. One individual, allowed to pursue his own goals and dreams, for the benefit of the entire country, helped the US beat the USSR to the moon. Therefore, being allowed to focus on our personal abilites and interests can indeed propel our ability to function as a community. IMHO anyway. :o)

But I do think that postmodern thinking has gotten to the point where mankind seems to think that he is the all-important center of the universe.

12/12/2006 2:33 PM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

capcom & Twinkle!

Re: holidays, I'm not even getting started. Suffice to say, they are, well, unique in their own respect.

More to the point - Whoa. Ayn Rand fans other than me. Most people don't even know who she is. :-)

For additional information prior to reading the following, read http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism

I agree with capcom. I think that more to the point, to bring it back to the concept of aiding society, is that self-interest, which is the term she uses, can even be seen in what are considered "good acts." FOr instance, self-interest means that we do things b/c we want to do them, b/c they make us feel good, and b/c they further our own personal interests. To take a quote from Wikipedia that sums up the belief - "To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason, Purpose, Self-Esteem." In other words, why do we do good deeds? Why do we help others? Yes, it's because in a collectivist world, doing for others is what is held as the standard. However, in a rational world that Rand proposes, the reason we do good things to help others is b/c it makes us feel good about ourselves or furthers our own feelings of purpose. Why do I teach? Because I enjoy it (and it pays me!). Why do I want to be good at it? Yes, because it helps my students. But, I get satisfaction out of watching them suceed. THe minute I no longer get that personal self-satisfaction, I should no longer teach if it's just out of a sense of duty. So, I think that if you put it in that context while Rand was a devout atheist and while many true objectivists believe that you cannot resolve religion/altruism with Objectivism, I think you can. Which brings things full round to the idea that even those acts that better the world or others are done, at least in part, for selfish reasons. Many of us try to deny the selfishness because we think it diminishes the acts themselves. However, if we admit that the personal satisfaction we receive from the acts only makes them greater, then we are true to both ourselves AND others. Being true to yourself is the only way to truly be happy and further society.

Hmmm ... methinks it's time for me to read my personally annotated and tabbed copy of The Fountainhead again. It's been about 4 yrs this time. (Sigh, I remember the days of academia where I did a whole paper relating Objectivism to the Law...too bad that's on an old computer that no longer works...ahh the days when I was smart...)

12/12/2006 7:44 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All! LOL Kvonhard, I wrote two papers on Ayn Rand during my business management degree! I only first discovered her in economics class, and glad that I had that opportunity to find out about her. I want to tackle 'Atlas Shrugged' in the near future.

Those are good points about how making ourselves happy at our job, makes us better performers for society and those who benefit from our performance. Especially as you say, being a teacher. This was also proved by the first studies of morale on the job and of the science of productivity, including Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When our needs are fulfilled not only do we satisfy ourselves (and have healthy self-esteem), but we are better contributors to our jobs and society as well.

The story of Colonel Sanders comes to mind at the moment. Apparently, when he got his idea for creating a commercial fried chicken business, he needed financial help. He had asked 1000 sources for assitance and was turned down. He believed so much in his desire to have a chicken business, that he kept positive and the 1001st person he asked for finiacial backing said yes. So, if the Colonel had not believed in his dream and pursued it until he achieved it, our society would not be able to enjoy the Colonel's secret recipe for fried chicken today! Myself, I don't touch the stuff. :o) But obviously, many people do.

Good idea for discussion Twinkle, you really got the ball rolling again! :o)

12/13/2006 9:16 AM  
Blogger kvonhard said...

Capcom - Yeah, I've read Atlas Shrugged as well. I picked it up and put it down about 5 times before I finally managed to get through it. I think I prefer the artistic side of Fountainhead as opposed to the more business oriented side of Atlas Shrugged. I also read the We the Living, which I thought was particularly interesting in how she uses the plural first person as a narrative tactic to point out the evils of communal thinking. Plus, it's like 125 pages. :-)

12/15/2006 9:28 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

Heh-heh, maybe I'll try "We the Living" first then! Thanks. :-) Yes, I'm very much into architecture, so I like Fountainhead for that reason also.

12/15/2006 8:09 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi SoTL-ies!

In case anyone is interested, since we're kind of on that subject, Lostpedia has posted an interesting article about the economics of Lostaway Island.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Economics

It breaks down the elements of Socialism, Tribalism, and Captialism, between the actions exhibited by Jack, Locke, and Sawyer respectively. It's a good read.

Ciao! :o)

12/22/2006 9:05 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Hey! Sorry I've been out! So many preparations. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas all!

I've only read Atlas Shrugged by Rand and really liked it. While I think extreme captalism is negative and should be checked by the government, I do agree that genius and exceptional effort are penalized by society, especially nowadays where the term "radical" and "extreme" have taken on such negative connotations. Radicalism, extremism, and exceptionality are not in themselves negative. It's what you may be extreme or radical about or exceptional in that matters. Anyway, that's a different topic.

The point I was trying to make about postmodernism is that society could be starting to reject the idea that the individual is the defining center of existence and growing more towards a community mindset (granted with people at the center of things but less individualistic).

The idea that nothing is done except in self-interest was tossed back and forth on the other post I linked to too. I'm of two minds about it personally. I can see how self-interest motivates everything I do, but often the connection doesn't happen until well after the fact. For instance, if I continue to do something out of a sense of duty, like stay together with my husband when my feelings are telling me otherwise, and continue to pursue working out the relationship because of a sense of loyalty and faithfulness, then in my experience I later find that we have grown and the feelings have reestablished themselves. It was in my best interest to do something that didn't feel like it was in my best interest. Of course different types of relationships/situations require different levels of committment. I might not work so hard or long against what feels in my best interest with an employer. But benefit can be derived from whatever circumstances which means that every action can result in a self-interested outcome.

However this leads to my problem with this theory. Can we never truly then do something solely for the benefit of others? I like what you said, kvonhard, about not letting the personal satisfaction we get from doing good to devalue the act. I still wonder because not all "self-interested" behavior feels the same. Some are easy like how quickly I get angry when I feel my ideas, possessions, or reputation are being challenged. Some are harder like when I try to understand where a person is coming from first. Maybe the challenge is to act in the interest of others trusting that the benefit for yourself will come later no matter what the apparent outcome? Maybe the challenge is to allow how we define what is in our "self-interest" to change so that we can derive satisfaction/benefit from things others may not see as in our self-interest? I find this all very confusing and fun to ponder.

Ok. now I'm going to check out Capcom's link. Thanks!

12/23/2006 6:49 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

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12/23/2006 11:32 AM  
Blogger capcom said...

Hi All! Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Fantastic Festivus, etc. :o)

That is too true Twinkle, that self-interest does not always have immediate benefits. And sometimes when we can't see that far down the road to the long term payback, it behooves us to use our foresight to figure out what the long term bennies are and choose them when necessary. It would have very much benefited Kate (pre-crash) to grow up and start thinking of the long term benefits and consequences of her actions, and she might have not gotten into as much trouble as she did. She could have had a completely different life if she had done some logic-thinking anywhere along the line before she was caught and taken onto flight 815.

In what way do you think that our society is becomming more community oriented? I feel that all I can see in the media, etc., is that people are getting more and more interested in looking out for #1 and their own self-satisfaction regardless as to how it looks or affects other people. Take (ugh, I hate to type the words) Britney Spears for example. She gets married and has two kids (with someone who doesn't show much interest towards his other two kids), gets divorced again, and is now out partying and carrying on, presumably to show everyone that she is on top and can do whatever she likes, now that she's getting divorced. And to heck with being a mother and staying home with the babies, I might add, which really ticks me off. :o( And it seems like the growing number of Sheeple in the world admire people of Spears' ilk, and emulate that behavior.

Of course on a smaller scale which does not get into the media hardly ever, many communities are coming together to help each other out. Although, I see it more down here in Knoxville than I did when I lived in upstate New York. :o) But I feel that the post-modern media is working against those of us who would try to improve the world, with its proverbial "fifth column" of negativity and destructive acts to undermine the collective community and the country. I dunno, maybe I'm just too pessimistic, but if you can show me examples of a more charitable and less self-centered movement across the globe, I'll be happy to change my outlook. :-)

Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas weekend, who celebrates it! I feel that it's an extra special blessing this year to have people like the LoCos and SoTLies to talk to, get to know, and to exchange ideas with and I'm really thankful for that. Love Y'all! XO

12/23/2006 11:55 AM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

In trying to explain my thoughts I looked up wikipedia's definition of post-modernism but it didn't help. So maybe there isn't a term to describe what I'm sensing. I've read articles in my science magazine that talk about how the web is changing (Web 2.0). Technology is causing us to become more connected and gradually changing the way we think, feel, and act. Or articles about how we're moving from a world conquering mentality to a long term maintenance mentality (or we should) in regards to how we think about and use the earth. I attended a seminar that talked about changes in the Church where there is a greater emphasis among some to get rid of commercialism, to focus on more authentic relationships, to integrate ancient and modern into worship, to name a few changes. It comes up in conversations with friends too. How we express our faith is changing. Many are taking purposeful steps to distance themselves from the traditional stereotypes of the American Christian while holding more closely to the life and teachings of Jesus. More people want to be connected to each other on more than just a surface "How are ya!" level. We're becoming more globally minded, economically, socially, culturally, and in terms of world resources.

I wish I understood more about how our culture is evolving. If anyone knows of a resource, please let me know. Instead all I have is this intuition from all these diverse changes are connected. Or maybe it's just the groups of people I hang out with. I just feel an undercurrent of reaction against the "every man for himself" mentality. Not saying it's mainstream. Maybe it will never be or maybe society in 50 years will look entirely different. Whatever the case, we know people taking advantage of other people and participating in self-destructive behavior will unfortunately continue until Mittlework accidentally wipes out humanity or the island's magnetic anomaly implodes the earth, whichever comes first.

12/23/2006 3:44 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Hey! I found an example. A recent New Scientist article interview Thomas Homer-Dixon who talked about the way something like Wikipedia could change our mentality and the way our society functions. He says:

What kind of breakdown forces are we facing?

We are in a time of fundamental crisis. I see five "stress" factors as likely to have the biggest impact on future disasters. Energy stress, especially from oil scarcity. Economic stress from global instability and gaps in the incomes of rich and poor. Population stress from differentials in growth rates between rich and poor, and from megacities in poor societies. Stress from worsening damage to land, water, forests and fisheries. And climate stress from changes in Earth's atmosphere.

Are there solutions?

We need radical thinking. One idea is what I would call open-source democracy, where you get a lot of people together using the online world to think collectively about how to solve our common problems.

What would be the role of the expert, scientific or otherwise, in this brave new collaborative world?

In the Wiki world, everyone has access to the same knowledge. Many people no longer feel that experts have additional authority. If knowledge is power, then today everyone has enormous power. What we need to do is get all of the people to take responsibility for the knowledge that we all possess. So, for example, in climate change, you don't have an expert come in and say do this or do that. Instead, you encourage lay people to learn about the details of energy or the atmosphere, so the quality of the bigger conversation is improving all the time. I'm not saying experts don't have a role: they will be part of the conversation, but they should not dominate.
--end quote--

From this, note how this person sees our society at a point of fundamental crisis in how we use the earth and how he feels a new dynamic of interaction/decision making is or should emerging. My interest is in how these things are changing or reflecting the changes in the way people think.

I also found this:

Take YouTube.com. In July, just seven months after its launch, YouTube users were posting 65,000 new videos and viewing 100 million clips per day....

The other huge phenomenon was MySpace.com, which lets users post and share personal information. Particularly popular with teenagers, it became the most visited address for US users in July, receiving more hits in a one-week period than even Google. By August it had registered its 100-millionth account.
--end quote--

Hmmm... YouTube? MySpace? July? Could it be that all our F5ing had a small influence?

12/30/2006 6:25 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Well Twinkle, it's a nice idea the man has, but I'll believe it when I see the world start to lay aside its greedy materialistic ways and come together.

I do agree that the internet has acted as the next step up from radio and TV as instant communication, which has aided in shifting power to the masses, or the proletariat, so to speak. We now "don't need no stinking biased Media" telling us what to think, and where to get the information to think it. But there are so many backward areas in the world still that do not even have electricity, let alone the internet. Do those people get even more left behind?

BTW Twinkle, I just found an interesting small book at the used bookstore today..."Faith In The Age Of Reason, The Enlightenment From Galileo to Kant", by Jonathan Hill. It starts with quoting and talking about the opening of Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities". I will be scanning over it later tonight. I had to laugh when I saw it, as it's right up our blogging alley! :o) It's a small book and should be an easy read.

Very interesting info on the MySpace surge! If we get a TLE2, we will have to look up the stats for another such surge during that game when the information is gathered, if it's available.

Take care all, and Happy New Year!

1/04/2007 5:25 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Hey, Capcom! How did that book turn out? As for greed and materialism, somethings got to change or we're going to burn out the planet.

Here's a repost from TLC:

Well, there you have it, the point of Lost. I don't believe it's a spoiler but I'll delete this if you all tell me to.

Kristin says:
Meanwhile, executive producer and director extraordinaire Jack Bender insists the show is about the monster inside the characters, not the monster outside of them.

The monster inside

Who's up for a new post on that one? How is Lost detailing the monster inside each character and how is the character handling it? Which characters have their monster yet to be revealed? How about the monsters inside of each of us? Are you of the "I could never be a murderer" camp or the "there's a potential murderer inside of all of us" camp or something else?

1/20/2007 6:05 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Oh, this was excerpted from Kristin's E Online *spoiler* article as posted by Dennis on TLC.

1/20/2007 6:07 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Ok, I'll start. For me this comment is most interesting because the island's most mysterious villian, Smokey, is all about revealing what's inside people. So this comment gave me an "Aha!" moment. We've already seen how TPTB want to take each character and gradually twist our initial perception of that person. Are they going to do the same thing with Paolo, Nikki, Rose, and Bernard too. I would say Claire and Aaron also haven't been given that chance yet either.

And does this mean that as each layer of the island's past is revealed (the four toed statue), the real story will be about how the island's past has influences the people on it? I was interested in the statue for the statue's sake but now I'm wondering about the people behind the statue and its current influence more.

So this gives me a lens through which to read the show, knowing the authors are intentionally trying to do this. Every turn of events, every new mystery, my first question will now be, "What does this reveal about the hearts of the characters?" It shows me that we're on the right track here at SoTL and not just blowing steam.

And maybe Smokey has no intelligence or volitional will but is simply an outward manifestation of what the hearts of the characters want him to be? Eko said he had no regrets but what if it were his internal hidden desires that caused Smokey to beat him up and kill him. Maybe Eko ultimately killed himself?

1/22/2007 2:38 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/29/2007 5:40 PM  
Blogger capcom said...

Good thoughts Twinkle,

I haven't gotten very far on that book yet, I took a detour to check out the Pilgrim's Progress books, as my church's women's group was studying it. I also found a couple DVDs on both books, each with Liam Neeson, and also an old cartoon VHS version from the 1960s. Pretty neat material.

You are right, and it is odd, Claire and Aaron have been sort of floating in a holding pattern throughout the show, after we got the initial details of how Aaron came to be and why Claire was on the plane. Surely TPTB would not have created them as fluffy filler for the show? All that Claire ever does is hold the baby, and talk about the baby, and get Charlie jealous about the baby. At least they gave us the Ep about Claire remembering what happened when Ethan took her, but as far as her daily contribution to Lostville on the beach, she's been a bit one-dimensional. I hope that TPTB have something up their sleeves for giving them some substantial storyline, sooner than later, in that they have implied that Aaron is some kind of special child. Or did we just assume that at TLC? :o) After all, they were the first ones picked to be taken from the Fusie bunch. They've got some s'plainin' to do!

The subject of revealing Smokey has got me very much looking forward to that actually happening. I really can't wait to see what TPTB have decided to make this thing actually be. And I hope that they explain such things as the statue, the Blackrock, and how those discoveries might affect the Lostaways' perspectives. And as you said, the original peoples who built, or put, or got these things there! I am still betting on the option that Smokey might be a kind of "monster from the Id" like in "Forbidden Planet"! That's the only explaination that I can think of that could fill all the different aspects of Smokey that we've seen so far (and the various manisfestations that we have contributed to Smokey). And if that's the case, then what is inside the Lostaway's hearts is VERY important, until they can possibly dismantle Smokey somehow and stop it from materializing what is in their minds. It could also be a part (in accordance too with comments on the blast door map) of what dispersed the Dharma-ites and why they disappeared, as in the way the Krell got killed off in the movie by the Id monster. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it!! :o)

And what you said about Mr. Eko is exactly what I was thinking, if Smokey's actions do come from the Lostaway's subconsciouses (sp?). If Eko really deep down didn't approve of himself, even though he outwardly was smug and confident in how he dealt with the trials in his life, perhaps he did indeed kill himself? Would TPTB get that deep? We shall see. :o)

Thanks for keeping the SoTL blog going Twinkle! Nine more days!

1/29/2007 5:52 PM  
Blogger Twinkle said...

Yeah, Capcom, that's the way I've been leaning too. I also think you're right that they'll have more to reveal about Claire and Aaron but I've changed my mind about the "character turnabout" for them that TPTB like to do with their characters. Claire's was one of the first with us first knowing her as an expectant mother and then later finding out she didn't really want the child. Aaron must be, not necessarily important, but significant enough to make the others want to protect him (or do something with him). We still have no answer to why, nor do we know the answer to the implication that the others can't have children.

Can't wait! Answers tonight?

2/07/2007 3:54 PM  

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